entah

No 38-57 No 18-37 Semua (balik urutan) |

Rin@Rin : 2007-11-26 18:54:57 UTC+0000
>>36
Memang orang Jakarta dan ga suka, itu benar, tapi ini baru pertama kali mendengar ada orang yang bilang gitu. Hebat juga, mendengar tentang orang Jakartanya sampai harus di Singapura oleh orang Bandung....

Contoh percakapan yang jadi aneh:
A: "Pak, gini, kita kan abis buat salah...."
B: "Eit, nanti dulu, yang buat salah kan cuma kalian, saya ga ikutan!"

Berhubung tulisannya:
"Tulislah nama-nama dibawah [sic] ini untuk
di doakan [sic] dan di undang [sic] oleh anda"

apa artinya di bawahnya ada nama dan orang2 diminta menulis nama itu?
Ko aneh sih? Apa maksudnya? Sepertinya ada masalah selain 3 kesalahan tulis di atas.... :(

Apakah maksudnya:
"Tulislah nama2 yang anda ingin doakan dan undang di bawah ini"?
Kelvin@Rin : 2007-11-27 10:11:00 UTC+0000
diacu: >>41 >>102
apa mungkin maksudnya :
"tulislah nama2 yang ingin anda undang dan doakan di bawah ini??"
paling bener kan..wkwkwkwk
hehehehe nimbrung aja wkwkwkwk..
mampir lewat kan harus ngepost..demi kebaikan meletus
hahahahahahahah
Kelvin@Rin : 2007-11-27 10:14:22 UTC+0000
diacu: >>41
>>35
iya bener juga sih..dasar..prof. bahasa Rin
wkwkwkwkwkk..
ya tapi yang memisahkan imbuhan itu gak selalu kok..
hehehehe cuma ngasih fakta aja ..^^
Rin@Rin : 2007-11-27 15:23:22 UTC+0000
diacu: >>42 >>46
>>39
Yang bener itu "yang ingin anda" atau "yang anda ingin" sih? :S
Kalau yang kedua, ko aneh subyeknya setelah predikat.... Kepengaruh Belanda kali ya....

>>40
Jurusan bahasa tuh gelarnya apa ya? x.Sci? x.Lit? (ganti x dengan huruf yang sesuai....)
Memang ga selalu, tapi jauh lebih sering dipisah daripada disambung, jadi entah masalahnya di mana.... (yang pasti saya ga bilang "semua" di atas, tapi "lebih sering")
yuku@Rin : 2007-11-27 16:01:07 UTC+0000
diacu: >>43 >>45 >>46
>>41
Betul yang pertama.
Jadi tiap kali ku denger orang ngomong misalnya,
"apa sih yang dia ingin katakan?"
cukup merasa aneh.
Lebih normal, "apa sih yang ingin dia katakan?"

Nah, ada yang lebih parah lagi, ada juga orang yang bilang,
"apa sih yang dia ingin mengatakan?" (mungkin dikira dia lebih baku).

Kalo dipikir2, ini mirip juga dengan pelajaran bahasa Inggris,
mana yang betul
"I wonder what is he saying"
atau
"I wonder what he is saying"
asa@Rin : 2007-11-27 16:08:40 UTC+0000
>>42
kalo kita kadang bingung dengan bahasa inggris si wajar2 ajah yah
karna itu bukan bahasa ibu kita

tapi kalo bahasa indo kan uda belajar dari kecil, harusnya ga salah dong
menurut leknot language puzzle
kita tau aturan2 bahasa ibu kita tanpa sadar, jadi bisa otomatis kuar yg bener
tapi kalo bahasa asing kita ga tau aturan2nya

mungkin orang yang ngomong indonya kacau ga sering pake bahasa indo yah
lebi sering pake bahasa daerahnya sendiri :D
Julius@Rin : 2007-11-28 08:51:20 UTC+0000
we, tiap user kok ada ceritae seh....
cape de....
aneh" ja....
wkwkwkwkwkw... ^^V
1peH@Rin : 2007-11-28 09:44:18 UTC+0000
diacu: >>46
>>42
"I wonder what he is saying"
Kalu "is" didulukan itu spt kal tanya.
Rin@Rin : 2007-11-28 12:43:33 UTC+0000
Menjawab >>42 dan sejalan dengan >>45
Kalau yg pertama itu seharusnya tanda bacanya (setelah membuang 2 tanda kutip di ujung kalimat):
I wonder, "What is he saying?"
Jadi kalau tanda bacanya begini, urutan katanya tepat. Dalam percakapan tanda komanya akan muncul sebagai jeda.

Sebenarnya tadi >>41 tuh maksudnya yang "pertama" bukan "kedua", tapi ya sudahlah....

Lebih lanjut tentang urutan: anda, ingin, dan katakan.
Dalam kalimat sederhana (dan baku), kan jadi: "Anda ingin mengatakan...."
Sebagai anak kalimat yang dipisahkan oleh "yang", maka tadi kan katanya jadi: "... yang ingin anda katakan...."

Untuk yang pertama polanya: S V1 V2
Untuk yang kedua polanya jadi: V1 S V2

Jadi subyeknya diapit oleh kedua kata kerja. Ko jadi aneh, ya? Aneh karena rasa-rasanya tidak pernah ada guru yang bilang bahwa subyek dalam bahasa Indonesia bisa muncul setelah predikat dan dari pengamatan biasanya subyek setelah predikat hanya muncul di akhir kalimat karena dia sempat "dipecat" dari posisinya di awal.
Rin@Rin : 2007-11-28 14:29:39 UTC+0000
Kayanya yang bener tetep:
"apa sih yang dia ingin katakan?"

Ini masih berhubungan dengan pola macam:
"Saya mau dibunuh." (yang sudah saya sebut di >>35)

Kayanya orang Indonesia udah terlalu banyak terbolak-balik deh, jadi artinya harus "ditebak" dan ga bisa "diterjemahkan" saja.

Bandingkan:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?"
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?"

Kalau "mau" dulu baru "subyek", berarti yang mau itu adalah yang datang sebelum kata "mau", dan yang setelah "mau" menjadi anak kalimat di bawahnya, jadi kalimatnya ada 3 tingkat.
Sedangkan kalau "subyek" dulu baru "mau", berarti yang mau adalah si subyek, dan hanya ada 2 tingkat kalimat di sini.

Jadi dengan contoh di atas:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?"
- "Saya kasih uang" menjelaskan "mau"
- "yang mau saya kasih uang" menjelaskan "siapa".

Sedangkan:
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?"
- "Saya mau kasih uang" menjelaskan "siapa"

Dalam bahasa Inggris:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?" --> "Who was it that wants me to give him money?"
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?" --> "Who was it whom I want to give money to?"
Rin@Rin : 2007-11-28 14:35:34 UTC+0000
diacu: >>75
Kayanya yang bener tetep:
"apa sih yang dia ingin katakan?"

Ini masih berhubungan dengan pola macam:
"Saya mau dibunuh." (yang sudah saya sebut di >>35)

Kayanya orang Indonesia udah terlalu banyak terbolak-balik deh, jadi artinya harus "ditebak" dan ga bisa "diterjemahkan" saja.

Bandingkan:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?"
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?"

Kalau "mau" dulu baru "subyek", berarti yang mau itu adalah yang datang sebelum kata "mau" (yaitu yang dipertanyakan), dan yang setelah "mau" menjadi anak kalimat di bawahnya, jadi kalimatnya ada 3 tingkat.
Sedangkan kalau "subyek" dulu baru "mau", berarti yang mau adalah si subyek, dan yang dipertanyakan adalah obyek dari anak kalimatnya itu, jadi hanya ada 2 tingkat kalimat di sini.

Jadi dengan contoh di atas:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?"
- "Saya kasih uang" menjelaskan "mau"
- "yang mau saya kasih uang" menjelaskan "siapa".

Sedangkan:
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?"
- "Saya mau kasih uang" menjelaskan "siapa"

Dalam bahasa Inggris:
"Siapa yang mau saya kasih uang?" --> "Who was it that wants me to give him money?"
"Siapa yang saya mau kasih uang?" --> "Who was it whom I want to give money to?"


Bahasa Indonesia itu bukan bahasa yang membolak-balik urutan subyek, predikat, dan obyek, kecuali untuk penekanan, macam:
"Roti saya makan." (menekankan obyek, jadi obyeknya diletakkan di depan, tapi setelah itu tetap SP)
"Mau pergi makan saya," atau "Mau apa kamu?" (menekankan predikat, jadi subyeknya dibuang dulu baru diselipkan kemudian, tapi tetap PO)
Rin@Rin : 2007-11-28 14:36:58 UTC+0000
Eh gawat, tadi refresh ga muncul jadi kirain belum nyampe jadi diedit dulu deh....

Ga bs delete, lagi.... pengen delete yang lebih awal (dan ini juga)
asa@Rin : 2007-12-01 10:09:10 UTC+0000
diacu: >>51
dari bbrp postinganmu di berbagai tempat sptnya kurang senang dengan mahluk2 kecil pendatang baru meletus yah?
Rin@Rin : 2007-12-11 06:00:37 UTC+0000
>>50
"Mahluk2 kecil"? Mengingatkanku pada istilah yg kusarankan sebagai terjemahan "bug"....

Hm... iya ya? Ya mungkin iya juga sih, tapi yang panjang-lebar di halaman sini kebanyakan bakal tampil juga tanpa peduli makhluk2 tadi ada atau tidak....
Rin@Rin : 2007-12-11 06:19:23 UTC+0000
>36
Ternyata banyak orang Bandung yg ga kenal kata "kami" juga....

Ga kenal maksudnya ga ada di "active vocabulary" (kosakata yg dipakai oleh orangnya), tp mungkin saja ada di "passive vocabulary" (kosakata yg dimengerti, tp tidak akan dipakai sendiri).
Rin@Rin : 2007-12-27 18:53:49 UTC+0000
Mumpung lagi kepikiran, sayang kalau ga ditulis.


Pronouncing Indonesian

Introduction:
Indonesia is written with Latin alphabet, just like English. While learning a language written with the same alphabet means that it is easier to accustom oneself with the writing system, the letters carry the danger of being misunderstood as pronounced the same. Actually, it is better to regards the 2 languages as simply using the same set of glyphs, which do not necessarily represent the same sounds.
Most people believe that the best method for correct pronounciation is by imitating a native speaker, but I believe that it is only half true. Most people can not really imitate the native speaker but instead they usually pronounce the words in the sounds of their own native language. To fill the missing half, one way is by understanding the mechanics behind sound generation, but such explanations tend to be too technical for the average learner. The text thus attempt to explain how to pronounce Indonesia correctly without going too technical. As this text is written in English, the reader is expected to be somewhat familiar with English pronounciation, although exactness is not needed as this is afterall about another language altogether.
Note that this text does not attempt to replace imitating a native speaker, it is only meant as a complement.

The good thing about Indonesian letters is that they tend to have consistent relationship with the sounds they represent, so almost all the time it is possible to guess the pronounciation of a word just by knowing how they are spelled (there are some exceptions, though). Further, the Indonesian name of most letters represent their sounds well, unlike, say, English name for 'W'.


Vowels:
Indonesian has 8 different vowel sounds, but 2 pairs are so similar that each pair is usually regarded as one for a total of only 6 distinct sounds but they are all represented by only 5 different glyphs, meaning that 1 of them have 2 distinct sounds, which is 'e'. There are practically no way to explain how to pronounce the vowels without going to technical, hearing and imitating a native speaker is the most practical way. So here I will only explain the easiest one and arguably the most important one: 'a'.
Indonesian 'a' is diferent from any English vowel. One way to help pronounce it correctly is by sticking one's tongue out and saying 'aaaah' just like how doctors usually tell their patients to do when they are checking the throat. Correct pronounciation of 'a' is important as this sound epitomize the whole Indonesian sound, as follows:
+ frontness: Indonesian sounds tend to be more frontal than English ones
+ the back of the tongue is more relaxed, and generally not raised, this also contributes to,
+ lack of intensity: correct pronounciation of Indonesian make it impossible to do European-like intensity based accent sounds. In Indonesian, the syllables are accented by lengthening the vowels and by raising the pitch. So, to further help in pronouncing Indonesian, try pronouncing 'a' with a high pitch.

Indonesian also has diphtongs, these are pronounced a stream of their constituent vowels.


Type-I consonants: (the name 'type-I' is my creation)
Consonants in this category are practically the same as the English counterparts, and hence the easiest ones. They are:
p,b
t,d
k,g
h,l,m,n,s,w,y

While I did say that they are very similar to English, some notes are still needed:
- h: when ending a syllable, it has the same pronounciation as when starting one, unlike English, in which it is typically silent
- l: never represent English's "dark l", for which the back of the tongue is raised until it touch the palate, a feature that does not exist in Indonesian, as mentioned in 'a'
- s: always represent an 's' sound even when ending a syllable, unlike English
- y: always a consonant, never a vowel
- k: represents 2 different sounds. When starting a syllable, it is similar to English, when ending a syllable it usually become what is known as a glottal stop. While 'k' is created by the sound of closing the airflow caused by raising the tongue to the soft palate, glottal stop is accomplished by closing the airflow with the vocal chords. Typical example of a glottal stop is in the word "uh-oh", the glottal stop is what ends the 1st syllable (see notes at the end). Since both 'k' and glottal stop obstruct airflow, the sounds are similar but they are still similar. Some 'k's ending a syllable are true 'k's and not glottal stop, but these are more of an exception and perhaps dialectal differences.

If you already know what "unvoiced" and "voiced" are, you can happily skip the following:
Do you notice that the first 3 lines have 3 pairs of letters? Try saying a pair, such as 'p' and 'b'. Hopefully you can notice that the shape of the mouth cavity is the same, differencing only in the vibration of the vocal chords. The letters on the left are called "unvoiced" while the letter on the right are called "voiced", voicing refer to the vibration of the vocal chord.
Indonesian syllables never end with a voiced consonant, and on instances when they are written as such, they are always pronounced as their unvoiced counterparts.


Type-II consonants:
These consonants are a bit different from English ones, they are:
c, j
f, r

- c: the closest English sound would be most "ch" sounds, which include: chicken, chill, china and check, but NOT Greek words like chrono, but still, they are different. The difference follow the general rule of Indonesian sounds being "more frontal", so, while English "ch" is pronounced by putting the middle of the tongue to the top, Indonesian "c" is pronounced by instead raising the part of the tongue between the middle and the tip to the appropriate place on the palate.
- j: is simply the voiced counterpart of 'c', and hence follow the similar difference.
- f: in Indonesian is atypical to European languages but in Asian languages, it is the sound that 'f' typically represent (European speakers may not consider it a true consonant, regarding it as simply blowing air). While English 'f' is pronounced by placing the lower lips under the (upper) front teeth, Asian 'f' does not have this feature. Hence, the sound can be summarized as: the sound of blowing air that is similar to 'f'.


Type-III consonants:
These are the letter of the alphabet that: do not fit into any of the above; in fact very rare; do not represent any distinct sound and are used in loanwords when the original use them. They are:
q v x z
They are pronounced as: 'k', 'f', 'ks', and 's' (respectively), except for 'qu'+a vowel, in which it is pronounced as 'kw' (similar to English, actually).

Type-IV consonants:
These are Indonesian digraphs, which are 2 consonant that jointly represent a sound that may not be similar to their constituents, they are:
ng
ny
sy

- ng: when at the end of a syllable, this is similar to English usage in words like: “ring”, “sing”, and “hang”. However, unlike English, this digraph can also occur at the start of a syllable and has the same pronounciation, as such it sounds like: "ringer", "singer", and “hanger” but without the 1st syllable. Note that it NEVER represent a sound like English "finger", such sound is represented in Indonesian with double ‘g’s.

- ny: is arguably the hardest sound for English speakers, as no true English word has this sound, but its sound is that of Spanish ñ, such as in: señorita and niño.

- sy: is arguably the hardest Indonesian sound, as many Indonesian can not pronounce it, usually substituting it with ‘s’ instead. The closest English sound will be “sh”, and the difference is similar to the case of ‘c’ and ‘ch’ above. This make the sound more similar to ‘y’ than ‘h’, as the digraph shows.


Additional notes:
Non-sentence initial syllable usually must start with a consonant, regardless of language, except when the preceding syllable ends with a vowel, thus they usually become a diphtong. When the consonant is not available, meaning that the syllable start with a vowel, there are 3 ways to handle it:
1. copying the last consonant of the preceding syllable. English does this when it is possible, hence the “finger” example above, but never in Indonesian.
2. adding a glottal stop, which act like an invisible consonant. English sometimes does this when the preceding syllable ends with a vowel (not always, depend on some factor). Indonesian does this when words that are not the first start with a vowel and not preceded by a vowel too, because adjacent vowels usually become a diphtong.
3. borrowing the last consonant of the preceding syllable, which then ends without it. Typical English way, which can also borrow consonant from the preceding word, but Indonesian only does this within a word, not between.

When 2 same vowels are adjacent to each other, they usually merge into 1 long vowel.
Rin@Rin : 2007-12-27 18:56:11 UTC+0000
Sebenarnya >>53 bukan "gp", tapi kalau muncul di /u entar kepanjangan, hehe....
Jadi sebenarnya ini yg gp :p

Weleh naik dr: 1967 ke 3212, sebesar 1245....
Rin@Rin : 2007-12-31 05:38:37 UTC+0000
>>53
Addition:
Type-I consonant
- 'h' represent 2 non-phonemic sounds. The 2nd sound occur when it is paired with 'i', both as 'hi' and 'ih'. This sound can be variously described as: front h, hissing h, and hot h (due to the sound made when the tongue has just been exposed to hot stuffs). This sound is automatic, though, as the way 'i' is pronounced made it impossible to pronounce the normal 'h'.

Type-III consonants:
- 'q' occur mostly in Arabic words and as such may be pronounced in Arabic may, but it being Arabic, usually only Muslims trying authentic pronounciation will say it that way. Most people would say them as simple 'k', though.
- 'v'. The reason it does not represent any distinct sound and definitely not the English 'v' is because English 'v' is the voiced sound of English 'f', while this 'f' is different from Indonesian 'f'. It is possible to voice Indonesian 'f', albeit rare.
- 'z' is, like 'q', occur mostly in Arabic words and so may be pronounced as 'z' or 's' depending on speaker, though mostly as 's'.

Type-IV consonant
- 'kh' was originally like Greek "chrono", Scottish "loch", and German "Bach" (the usual examples....), but with this being an Arabic word and actually difficult to pronounce (for the average Indonesian), it usually shift to 'k' instead.

To summarize, there are 5 sounds that can differ according to speaker (the difference can be considered "dialectal"), they are:
As distinct sounds: q, v, z, sy, kh
Though mostly as: k, f, s, s, k


note: need more thinking....
yuku@Rin : 2007-12-31 11:51:27 UTC+0000
diacu: >>58 >>60
>>53
Ada 8 suara vokal? Apa aja gitu?
derianto@Rin : 2008-01-01 11:48:57 UTC+0000
diacu: >>58
>>53
wah sangat menarik sekali!
ternyata betapa susahnya speaker Inggris (Amrik / British) mengucapkan
Indo.

membuktikan perbedaan aksen memang susah di...perbaiki

ku akan sangat senang sekali kalo ada cara mengucapkan Inggris untuk
speaker Indo

(eh ato sebenernya dengan membaca artikel di atas bisa mengerti kira2
aksen Inggris itu seperti apa)

 

Kau akan ngepos secara anonim! Boleh2 aja sih, bahkan tulis nama dan sembarang paswod pun boleh. Tapi kalo mau daftar, klik daftar

Nama Pwd gp jsp (lima satu)+(satu lapan)= +img +coret

 

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